A Lover of Questions ([info]luciferian) wrote,
@ 2008-05-08 16:19:00
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something from nothing
* My father once told me that respect for the truth comes close to being the basis for all morality. "Something cannot emerge from nothing," he said. This is profound thinking if you understand how unstable "the truth" can be.
o from Conversations with Muad'Dib by the Princess Irulan

I love the story of Dune and I think Frank Herbert is awesome

the timeline for the various attempts at taking Dune from book to the screen

So this Bad Motherfucker had this totally inspired idea for a movie of Dune: read about it

the Dune you will never see

more about Jodorowsky, seriously this guy is awesome

So now someone else is going to try another Dune movie
check it out

Jodorowsky's Dune sounds both totally amazing and totally stupid. I'm in awe of his vision and drive, but dont wonder why hollywood pulled the plug on him. However I dont think its at all exagerating to call his failed production of dune as a critical influence on; Alien, Blade Runner, Star Wars, Conan the Barbarian, and Pink Floyds Dark side of the Moon.

The actual Dune film that was made I do consider to be a blasphemous failure, and I'm very dissapointed with the sci-fi version, basically because no one wants to make the Dune what it is really supposed to be; a kung fu movie

People forget that the whole plot of the book is essentially this:
-the Emperor of the known universe is threatened by the growing power of the Atredies family. -The power fo the Atredies family is in the military aptitude of the Duke Leto, and the martial arts prowess oftwo masters, Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck.
-The Emperor Maintains his power with his Elite troups, the Sardaukar. To Eliminate the potential threat to his own authority from the Atredies he "awards" them control over arrakis, but its a trap, because the planet had been controlled by their long-time rivals the Harkonnens, who have a right to seek revenge via assasination.
-The Emperor then uses the cover story of Harkonnen revenge to hide his own Sardaukar troops among the Harkonnen forces and take out the Atredies in a suprise attack.

so basically the Atredies kung fu was almost as strong as the emperors, so he took out a potential rival making it look like the harkonnens did it seeking revenge.

In fact the whole Plot ofthe emperors backfires on him, because it drives the young son of the fallen duke, Paul Atredies, and his mother Jessica, who are both masters of the "weirding way", the Elite fighting style blended from Both the martial arts of Atredies Family and the Benne Geserit monastic order, to join the nomad society of dessert-dwelling Fremen and teach it to them.

This enables Paul to lead them the newly trained army to overthrow the Emperor in an apocalyptic final battle, which culminates in a duel between Paul Atredies and the Harkonnen Price Feud Ratha, who is a reknowned knife fighter himself.

So with all this talk of how the Spice is a metaphor for oil, no one ever mentions that the real resource war in this story is over martial arts knowledge.

There are many other fascinating plots and ideas presented in Dune,but all of them are built around a story that is fundamentally about who has the superior fighting style and military culture, or as we say, "kung fu life".

and every attempt to present the story cinematicaly thus far has failed gruesomely because think either
a) people dont have enough kung fu to recognize this or
b) people just dont want to tell this tale, as in the case of David Lynch, who personally dismissed the whole question of the martial arts story in favor of the "weirding module" idea, which was fucking lame.

I just console myself with the knowledge that Jodorowsky's divinely inspired failure brought about a revolution in sci-fi movies that produced so many other brilliant bastard children.


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He was no Palpatine
[info]nephilimnexus
2008-05-08 10:11 pm UTC (link)
The Emperor in Dune was a tool. A smart emperor would have first used basic overwhelming firepower, not "shock troops."



Then, just to be sure, he would have has his own cadre of mystic kung-fu bad-asses as a backup plan.



That's how you rule a galaxy.

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Re: He was no Palpatine
[info]luciferian
2008-05-09 05:06 am UTC (link)
in dune the emperor is unable to use atomics because of a ban on such weapons upheld with a mutually assured destruction system. A much more difficult system to dominate.
The sardaukar are his superior firepower and his mystic kung fu baddasses. I feel the story neglects them. occasionally it is mentioned that they have thier own religion and they use a nearly unstopable "infighting" style.
The Emperor Shaddam IV "recruits" the sardaukar interesting: anyone sentenced to death is, unkown to the rest of the galaxy, sent to the "prison planet" Salusa secundus, where they get the chance to join the sardaukar and earn their continued life as a death commando.

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[info]nephilimnexus
2008-05-09 04:00 pm UTC (link)
Ahh, the Dirty Dozen ... or in this case, the Dirty Ten Million? Sounds like a good idea.

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[info]hard_knox_life
2008-05-09 12:07 am UTC (link)
interesting

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[info]kingdom_within
2008-05-09 11:07 pm UTC (link)

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[info]atropis
2008-05-11 11:46 pm UTC (link)
mmm, dune.

seriously awesome, the mystic and mythic emphasis of the moviemaker guy.

interesting that the success of star wars is considered by the one article to have had too much power for any other neat movie to stand up under. recalls the quote attributed to genghis khan about how "it is not enough that i succeed, everyone else must fail." a sharp contrast between lame and awesome as a requirement for lasting success. will probably think about that for a while. the timing of making a thing public and all. "its time has come" another relevant idea.

dali might have ruled as the emperor. so to speak. clever use of the puppetry and insanity, given dali's requirements for working as such.

crazy spice conceptualizaion. the baron as a "floating fat man" seems to have occurred anyway. a bold move to kill paul. so soon, anyway.

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[info]atropis
2008-05-11 11:57 pm UTC (link)
in unrelated news, dethklok's about to play clutch cargo. http://www.last.fm/event/583429

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[info]luciferian
2008-05-12 07:32 pm UTC (link)
i think I'm guest listed

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[info]ankh_f_n_khonsu
2008-05-15 07:55 pm UTC (link)
Umm... Have you actually read any of the books?

I'm having difficulty seeing how Dune could be boiled down into fighting style and military culture. That impression resonates in the cinematic versions, but the books take an all together different slant.

Namaste.

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[info]luciferian
2008-05-16 03:54 pm UTC (link)
I'm a huge fan of Herberts writings and ideas. I've read many of his books.

You may have some very different associations with the semantic "military culture" than I.

what would you say is the different slant that the books take?

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[info]ankh_f_n_khonsu
2008-05-16 04:28 pm UTC (link)
As a series, Dune is difficult to pigeonhole. His imaginal vision drew politics, religion, ecology, technology, and philosophy together, but according to Herbert, the "central paradox concerns the human vision of time." Given that our experience of time is directly related to our experience of consciousness, and considering Herbert's mystico-religiosity, it seems likely he was trying to draw our attention to the timeless I.

There is definitely an exoteric, military-laden level to the book; but I think the meat of the text is in its esoteric aspects and implications.

However, I'm certainly no Herbert scholar, and there are certainly numerous divergent themes within the texts. I wouldn't be so bold as to say there is no "military culture slant", but I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest it as the dominant theme.

As an aside, as much as I <3 Jodorowsky, his take on "Dune" was fucking nuts. I'd have loved to have seen the film, but I'm also glad it never got made. Perhaps Herbert would be pleased with the paradox. :)

Namaste.

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[info]luciferian
2008-05-17 03:18 am UTC (link)
my proposition is that the "military culture" end of the story is the often overlooked primary plotline.

I would not however suggest that its the single objective of the tale. I think it been said enough that the story is amazingly multifaceted. What I think hasnt been said enough is that its fantastically well informed in matters of kung fu. People dont often remeber that Frank Herbert was a Judo instructor in the 60's, and was in the military for a while. Being involved in martial arts in those days was a pretty intense prospect

think about this: why were the atredies a threat to the emperor? why was did the sardaukar want so badly to eliminate the Fremen?

this doesnt reduce the significance of any of Dunes other themes.

Also; I've read that Herbert had a very friendly relationship with jodorowsky. I almost suspect he had a hand in puling the plug on him.

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[info]ankh_f_n_khonsu
2008-05-18 12:48 am UTC (link)
Is it that the military aspects have been overlooked by literary critics, or is it more a matter of them being subordinate to other, more crucial elements?



why were the atredies a threat to the emperor? why was did the sardaukar want so badly to eliminate the Fremen?

House Atredies symbolized transformative, unitive consciousness. The Emperor symbolized static, hegemonic consciousness.



The infinite seeks the intimate presence of the finite,
the finite to disappear in the infinite.
I do not know whose scheme this is...
that the bound should be on a search after freedom -
freedom asking to be housed in the bound.
- Tagore

The Fremen were the antithesis of the Sardaukar.




I think what confuses me most is that you seem to be highlighting the exoteric metaphor rather than the esoteric wisdom. It seems a little like focusing on the shell of an egg rather than the egg itself; however, one of the most wonderful aspects of the series, IMO, is its immense depth and breadth. This allows for some fantastic ideosyncratic realizations/understandings - which is pretty much exactly what Herbert wanted... his son, well, he has a different agenda...

Namaste.

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my motivation
[info]luciferian
2008-05-19 01:44 am UTC (link)
I havent read anything by his son,I dont think I will.

the reason I'm highlighting this, perhaps mundane, element of the story is because it is so often either overlooked, or in the case of David Lynch, deliberately excluded from the story.

Because Dune is very dear to my heart, and a new director is about to re-make the film, hollywood has another chance.

As a martial artist, I recognize a kindred spirit in Herbert, and see in Dune an tale that hinges on the question of superior fighting philosophies.

I really hope that in the new production the martial arts aspect is given its proper central role in the story, and not glossed over with CG effects. Its this idea of the movie production that motivated me to post.

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Re: my motivation
[info]ankh_f_n_khonsu
2008-05-19 01:58 am UTC (link)
Don't discount Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson! They're excellent story-tellers! But they certainly lack the depth of Frank Herbert's original chronicles.

Have you come across Robert Anton Wilson yet, by chance?

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[info]luciferian
2008-05-19 02:14 am UTC (link)
perhaps I've been too quick to dismiss the new Dune books. I'll check em out.

yeah R.A.W. is awesome. I've read Illuminatus, the cosmic triggers(though they blur together as I think back) and Quantum Phsychology. Perhaps others.

I never really bought all 8 of Learys proposed conciousness circuts. But yes, my reality tunnel is certainly defined by my work. You might borrow it for a while, its empowering I promise.

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[info]luciferian
2008-05-19 02:06 am UTC (link)
I think what confuses me most is that you seem to be highlighting the exoteric metaphor rather than the esoteric wisdom.

I see the esoteric wisdom in this instance as not at all serperate from the metaphor, but deeply intertwined. I dont think the idealogical questions of Dune can be properly understood without understanding the central questions of the martial arts involved.

Dune is a story about trancendence; through violence. "war as societal orgasm" is how Herbert put it. The various factions in the story all have different ideas about training and developing their power structures, on a levels of physical technique and broad cultural/political policy.

For those of us involved in martial arts training on a deep lifestyle defining level, as Herbert was, these questions are very familiar and his postulations are intriguing. These are concerns of kung fu, and the other crucial dimensions grow from them.

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[info]ankh_f_n_khonsu
2008-05-19 02:26 am UTC (link)
As I am also sympathetic to kung fu - having trained in ba gua, hung gar and chi kung - I'm inclined to mostly agree. The only minor quibble is over the separation of the esoteric wisdom from the exoteric metaphor.

"War as societal orgasm", however, reminds me of Fremion's Orgasms of History...

Namaste.

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